Timing seems to be way out!!!!

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Momboy007
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:56 pm

Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by Momboy007 »

Hello All,
My buggy once again started backfiring during acceleration through the exhaust, I checked the timing using a light and found it to be, during idle, 19ATDC, yes, clockwise of TDC, the buggy actually seems to idle fine, but it is almost undriveable because of the backfiring. Is this even possible with the timing being out so far?

Thanks,

Rick
lastmanx
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Location: Ashland Massachusettes

Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by lastmanx »

timing does matter. my honest vw mechanic who taught me to be independent on fixing my buggy; believed timing only had 2 settings, top dead center and 5 degrees before top dead center. he would say the 5 degree before tdc is better with low octane gas and high mile engines. I set mine at 5 degrees before tdc and it works fine. keep in mind though I use a 009 centrifical advance. a vacuum advance can fluctuate so be sure hoses and connections are tight. either way get the timing wright. again a lot of this is common knowledge to those who chose to read up on this (three must read books for newbies) but at least you are learning. good job keep smiling.
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jsturtlebuggy
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Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by jsturtlebuggy »

Are you absolutely sure your crankshaft pulley is mark correctly with top dead center (TDC) for number 1 cylinder being in the correct position with piston being at top of stroke? I have seen pulleys being marked incorrectly.
What kind of timing light are you using? It is able to dial back to zero to check for total advance?

If you are saying it at 19degrees after top dead center, it should not idling well at all.

Please remind us of what kind of distributor you are using. Does it have points or a electronic module in it?

When you are reading the where the timing mark is while engine is running with the timing light, is it stable or is it jumping around?
Joseph
Manx Club #1095
Having fun with Buggies since 1970
Worked in VWs in shops since 1970
Momboy007
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:56 pm

Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by Momboy007 »

Hello All,
My timing light came from Sears, they said it was a good one ($69) Years ago, it does have a knob that goes from zero to like 35, I leave it on zero (O). I have no idea what kind of distributor I have, I bought this from Turn key Manx, it is pointless, electronic, but I believe Nate told me it was not an 009, but a better one.
Like I said, it does idle well, when I bought the Buggy I was told it was build for reliability and the only thing not stock was some very minor head work. I am also running back with the 34 PIC 3 carb.
What do I do with the knob on the timing light?
I honestly think the timing marks are correct as the buggy was built by Turnkey and they appear to be very good.
I did not that the hold down bolt for the distributor is loose, it has a nylon insert but it is not tightened down all the way, because the distributor hold down bracket is bent and when the nut is tightened down all the way, the distributor will lift out slightly (Not good) I will need to purchase another asap
Also, according to my timing light the timing DOES NOT jump around, but rather is very stable at 19 Degrees

Thanks again for any help

Rick
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jsturtlebuggy
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Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by jsturtlebuggy »

The knob on a timing light is for checking total timing at around 3,500RM. You turn knob so that TDC Mark is at split in case and then read where the knob is turned to. This could be 28 degree and more (with around 10 degrees BTDC at idle).

I would recommend taking it back to who you bought it from or go to B&R Buggies in Oceanside and see Gary and his crew to see if they can help you figure what you have going on with the timing reading you have and the backfiring problem.
Gary has been in business for a long time and knows VWs inside and out.
Joseph
Manx Club #1095
Having fun with Buggies since 1970
Worked in VWs in shops since 1970
lastmanx
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:40 pm
Location: Ashland Massachusettes

Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by lastmanx »

momboy007 if I understand your answer, you say the distributer is loose. it must not be loose. if loose it is not locked in to a setting and will continue to go out of setting. the john muir book shows how to set the timing statically,(meaning engine is off not running not using a timing light just a simple test light) this method is easy to do. you shouldn't run your motor with the distributer loose as the timing being off could possibly cause damage. all I can say for the last time read the 3 must read books for newbies. you have diagnosed your timing problem and don't even realize it. the loose distributer can't hold the timing when set because it won't tighten thus holding the distributer from going out of adjustment. sorry to nag but its time you get real about learning vw engines and the muir book was written for some one like yourself. good luck you will need it keep smiling.
Momboy007
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:56 pm

Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by Momboy007 »

LastManx,
I have the John Muir book, the timing is electronic, can I still set it staically, without points? the book does not say!!! The distributor is not loose per say, it is tight, however the holddown bolt is not tightened down (For the distributor, otherwise, it will raise it out of its housing, the timing bolt is tight as can be, just way out, but it does not move around.

Also, how do I find out what Year my motor might be?? All I know is it a 1600DP

Thanks again for all your help

Rick
lastmanx
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Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by lastmanx »

the hold down bolt needs to be tight. you can time it static with the electronic pointless distributer. follow directions the same with test light, only omit the setting points directions. the muir book will tell you how to find the motor id number and there is a chart that will tell where it should be set. 5 degrees before top dead center always works, but look it up anyway so you get used to the book. I always refer to the book every time I work on my buggy so I don't screw it up. here's how the clamp for distributer works; it clinches around the distributer tight and other end is bolted tight to the engine. it is the bolt to the engine that anchors it from moving once that nut is tight it will hold it in place. as you loosen the cinch around distributer you will be able to turn the outer housing for adjustment (the roter inner shaft stays put. read the section on how to change a distributer as it may make it clearer to you; also you may have it miss aligned if it raised up. you should also by now have a bently manual to refer to that would have accurate pictures to look at rather than cartoon drawings. the vw engine is not magic it is like any engine it needs all parts working correctly in harmony to work properly(not just most parts working) one bolt tight the other not means one is still loose thus not as intended by the design engineer. if a part was not needed to run it would not be there as it would save expense when first designed. nuts and bolts are intended to be tight in order to work. 2 lug nuts on a wheel rather than all the lug nuts just won't do it as an example. you can't expect something to work properly when its not all proper. half ass just won't work with science mechanics. check every single thing on you motor to be sure it is exactly as it should be no mater how long it takes, once done your engine should be working correctly! good luck keep smiling
Momboy007
Posts: 78
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Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by Momboy007 »

All,
I got a new clamp/mount today, a whooping $2.97 and will install tomorrow, I did not know I could statically time it with breaker less ignition!!!!
I will let you know how it goes, but first I will be adjusting valves and following a complete tune up per the John Muir book


Rick
lastmanx
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Location: Ashland Massachusettes

Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by lastmanx »

knowing is half the battle. if you haven't yet; read the entire book you will be amazed at what you will learn. another tip is that very often after market chrome parts are poorer quality than stock. also some advertised heavy duty parts are also less quality than stock. and by now you may have found that most stuff does not come with instructions. it is assumed you know the information contained in the 3 must read books; therefore instructions are unnecessary. because you are starting to get it i'll tell you the big secret. EXPERIENCED VW PEOPLE like myself wait for newbies to get frustrated with either paying someone to fix or trying to fix their buggy themselves and then we buy it for pennys on the dollar. usually the newbie will make a simple error and render the buggy to be non running. a error I can notice by just looking at it. ok not all of us are dirt bags but they are out there. this happens with any collector car hobby. the corvette guy or Camaro guy knows what's an easy fix and what's not. it's not rocket science, but it is science. pull up your big boy pants and go fix YOUR buggy. YOU got yourself into this and YOU can get yourself out of it. after all they are just simple little Volkswagens :crazy: :lol: have a nice day and keep smiling.
Momboy007
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:56 pm

Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by Momboy007 »

All,
I statically timed my baby using a test light, I did not know you could do this with an electronic ignition until LastManx mentioned this. Anyhow, I now have it timed to 5 degree BTDC, it still backfires a lot, my valves are properly set and now I know it is timed correctly, at least at idle, it idles great, however under a load during a test run, it still backfires.
I will keep at it until I get it right


Rick
lastmanx
Posts: 394
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Location: Ashland Massachusettes

Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by lastmanx »

rick does it backfire when acceleration? or when you decelerate letting off the gas. it has been my experience that if it backfires when off the gas pedal it is due to an exhaust leak. check the exhaust port manifold gaskets and the doughnut style gaskets if you have them. also if you have a heat riser block off gasket. even a cracked pipe will cause a back fire. a poor fitting slip joint could cause a backfire. if it is on acceleration I don't have any advice, other than check for a broken valve spring, but you said you set the valves and you would have seen a bad spring. sorry all my back fire issues were related to exhaust. cheap jc whitney exhausts came with cheap header gaskets they would have 3 cheap gaskets and always one carb manifold gasket (it was wrong but it happened to me more than once). you want the metal and fiber type, stock fiber only type can burn through in a mile or so. one last thought be sure the exhaust manifold nuts are tight (stock nuts do loosen) you should have the 12mm copper with welded lock washer type. they work best. good luck.
Momboy007
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:56 pm

Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by Momboy007 »

Hello LastManx,
I backfires under acceleration, I have a good exhaust pipe (Tri-Mil) with the good exhaust fiber gaskets and they are tight, I am thinking my ignition could be bad possible. When I statically timed it, there was a very very small spot where the light went out, when I watched this procedure on You Tube, it seems the light went out (Test light) for a few degrees of timing, where mine went out very quickly and on a very small turn.

Thanks,

Rick
lastmanx
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:40 pm
Location: Ashland Massachusettes

Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by lastmanx »

ok rick. also be sure the distributer is sitting correctly in engine as previously you mentioned it could be pulled up. also did you look up your timing in chart or just go with my 5 degrees btdc? if so try top dead center also. and you are sure your firing order is correct. good luck.
Momboy007
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:56 pm

Re: Timing seems to be way out!!!!

Post by Momboy007 »

Hello Again,
I have taken it to VW Paradise in San Marcos, Ca to get it baselined, I give for now, I am hoping to get it running correctly, then do the tune ups myself in the future.
The distributor is held down securely now, and before I timed it, I installed a new distributor hold down bracket, the firing order is correct according to John Muir book and the timing was set to 5 BTDC.
The little buggy idles like a purring kitten, but when under load, it backfires and is lacking power.

Rick
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