Re: PERCEIVED AS OUTLAW

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lastmanx
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Re: PERCEIVED AS OUTLAW

Post by lastmanx »

The Texas buggy group is facing legal actions of revoked title and registrations of previously titled dune buggys. (see previous question for real details).
Have any of you faced profiling by law enforcement while operating legally on roads in your state, perceived as an outlaw by the police? I have. Please share your story here. ( I don't mean when you drove without plates or trespassing on private property.) I mean when you were driving along in your Buggy to a show or event, or simply a ride on a nice day, not speeding or driving erratic when suddenly the blue lights and siren from behind were for you.
I'll start it because it has happened to me over the many (over 20) years. I live in Massachusetts. I have legal title, Ma. registration plates and state mandated safety inspection sticker. (buggy is emission exempt as is titled as 1967). I have had previous buggys legally driven in same manner. I have safety belts windshield wipers and working lights, turn stop head and tail. no dangling hanging wires under dash.
so one time in 1995 I got pulled over, the officer told me I had no right to be driving my buggy on the road due to: no front lic. plate, no bumpers ,no seat belts, and the spare tire being mounted on the hood. I was in my 30's (not a kid) with my wife and our maltese lap dog. I corrected the cop by pointing we had double tube bumpers front and back , that the plate is on the front if he looked for it, we were belted and I had a current safety sticker: thus refuting all allegations. He insisted I had to be unlawful, that he had dealt with my kind of outlaw before. (he was having a flashback to 1968 ). I restated the Ma. safety sticker and legal paperwork says otherwise. we could have continued on for hours. I had stated my case and changed the subject to: why did he pull me over? (as I had pointed out his lack of cause). It caught him off guard, and stopped his attack. He said I was pulled over due to a turn signal light not working (defective equipment). I punched the fender and the lightbulb came to life. I agreed with him that I indeed had a bad lightbulb, and would now return home to change the bulb. ( I was only 5 minutes away from home). I asked if he wanted to give me a ticket, but he said his verbal warning was sufficient. He threatened he would look into the legality of my buggy. Nothing ever came of the incident other than wasting 30 minutes of my happiness. In his mind I was PERCIEVED AS AN OUTLAW.
Last edited by lastmanx on Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
lastmanx
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Re: PERCEIVED AS OUTLAW

Post by lastmanx »

So this other time wile cruising around on a Sunday, around early 2001 we passed through downtown Sherborn (a quiet no crime old town) . I did have chrome megaphone 4 tip exhaust. As we approached the town line: blue lights and siren were for us. The cop stated our buggy was" so loud it was scaring horses and making babies cry". Further more it was unsafe due to rolling over.
I apologized for the noise indicating there may be a temporary malfunction I would fix right away. I then told him his ford explorer was more likely to roll over: as a VW has one of the lowest center of gravity of any vehicle.
Recall the firestone tire issues that caused all vehicles to now have tire pressure sensors. Ford explorer rollovers were in the news daily.
He agreed that his Explorer was more likely to roll over. It stopped his attack . I asked if he needed to see my registration, drive lic. etc.,he said no as he had run my plate with his computer in the Explorer and knew I was legal. He then said he got a radio call and had to go. No action was taken but he PERCIEVED US AS AN OUTLAW.
Is it just me? or has something similar happened to you? I have more stories, what have you got?
Last edited by lastmanx on Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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5150bossman
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Re: PERCIEVED AS OUTLAW

Post by 5150bossman »

Like in any profession, there are some overzealous people who let their position go to their heads, or maybe they are just having a bad day. While someone could very easily come in contact with one of these people, I have found that the vast majority of people in whatever profession are courteous and straight forward. This is applicable in law enforcement as well. In law enforcement, sometimes we take an officer's direct law and order approach as being over-bearing (don't we all hate being told we can't do something?!), but their job is to enforce the myriad of laws that are on the books to keep everyone safe. And remember, they have no idea who you are, or what your intentions are, and so must take adequate precautions (They spend 80% of their time dealing with the worst 5% society has to offer. Right or wrong, that does have an effect on how they deal with people on a day to day basis).

In the case of a buggy, many officers rarely see one on the highway. When they do, it usually looks completely different than a normal car (but isn't that part of why we drive them?!). With that, they are looking for things that normally appear unsafe (No roof, no doors, no body etc...). A burned out tail light or loud exhaust is sufficient cause to conduct an investigative stop. The officer is then going to go over your precious buggy with a fine tooth comb. Does it have windshield wipers, horn, legal tires, does the VIN match etc... The problem comes in that the officer is most likely not completely familiar with the all specific laws that cover a buggy. He will have a feel for what is legal, but not know each applicable law specifically (and that different model years may have vastly different requirements).

Lastmanx did the right thing by trying to educate the officer. Ultimately, being knowledgeable, yet humble when stopped gets you a lot further than trying to vigorously argue your point, telling the officer he (or she) is flat out wrong. And remember, if you still get a ticket, you get another chance to prove your point to a judge in court. Just do your homework first.

Remember, in the officer's eyes, it's more about trying to keep everyone safe, and not labeling specific groups as outlaws. It was unfortunate that the officer that stopped Lastmanx used that language. As a buggy owner, I try to keep our buggy legal to my State's laws. I will admit that I have never been pulled over in my buggy (though I can't say that as to my other cars :shock: ), but I have done some prep just in case (I keep various buggy related vehicle code laws on my cell phone to show an officer should they call something into question). And most times I have had contact with an officer when parked (out on the town, with a small group, or at a buggy event), they ask all the usually buggy questions, then leave saying that buggies were cool, and would look into getting one themselves. :mrgreen:
lastmanx
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Re: PERCEIVED AS OUTLAW

Post by lastmanx »

5150bossman. lighten up. I posted the "outlaw" in jest. I have met and dealt with plenty of upstanding cops. I have not mentioned stories where cops pulled me over to inform me a brake light was out,: commenting on how it would be a shame if my buggy was rear ended due to the bad light. In those incidents the officer stated first the broken light was the reason for the stop and that was it. I fully understand I drive a loud flashy attractive off road race car looking vehicle. It does not blend in, nor does it pretend to hide. I know every police car I pass, I am seen. I'm talking about the other times when a cop gets overly excited and acts silly, or behaves silly. The stories are for entertainment only. Yes I understand when they pull over my buggy it is because they have perceived (incorrectly) that a law has been broken. I am always respectful to them, and allow them to calm down and come to their senses in their own time. It usually begins when they meet me: a 56 year old man, with his wife, and her pet lap dog, all buckled up in a carpeted, modestly equipped interior. I comply fully. I don't rave or argue. It has always ended peacefully, and I feel the officer may have gained some reality in-site to the buggy life. Sorry you missed the silly points of my stories, I have been told I am a poor communicator. The silly point of the first story was: the cop was telling me my car should not be road legal, even though it had all proper signage (and had it for 5 years previous). He first informed me of how illegal I was. it was only when 10 minutes after I asked why I was pulled over, that he mentioned it was due to a bad light. The second story point was that the cop actually said babies cried and horses got scared, even though none were around. He also said my buggy was prone to easily rollover. I've never heard that. Again seemingly once he saw us all he began to come to his senses. It also ended well. The point of all this is that many have misconceptions of VW dune buggys. Law enforcement officers, and Texas Legislators. I do feel after every PERCIEVED AS OUTLAW incident the cop has left a little more positively informed to the reality of buggy life. I understand when they pull me over they suspect a law is being broken, and when they are shown there is none broken and that dune buggys do legally exist and are street legal they will be less excitable when they encounter a newbie buggy owner. Get Real; Texas is wrong in what they are doing. It is almost funny, But it is not! Nobody should be trying to ban FUN: which is all these buggys are all about. I get thumbs ups by many passing people, including police people. Please share a silly story and KEEP SMILING.
Last edited by lastmanx on Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
lastmanx
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Re: PERCEIVED AS OUTLAW

Post by lastmanx »

OK, So 2 years ago this other time while driving home on a hot summer Thursday night from my states largest cruise night (Bass Pro Shop-Gillette Stadium), where an average 2000 cars meet up. Several towns over: I noticed flashing blue grill lights behind me. I wouldn't have been able to hear a siren: as my wife was playing her swap meet find of old country cd's loudly on my new 600 watt system.(used to easily overpower any exhaust tone :roll: . I pulled over and shut the buggy down. He did not have a siren in use. The vehicle in front of us had pulled over as well. The cop was driving an unmarked ford compact,(no roof lights, no lettering, no markings). He said we were speeding at 55 mph in a 45mph zone and that he had been following us for miles. He asked if we use our rearview mirrors and why didn't we see him. I respectively said I was not looking behind me, and mostly only look behind when backing up, I said sorry we were playing music and not paying attention to the speedometer ( my speed was not 55 mph as my wife Tracey keeps a constant eye on it, and commented to me of the fact as the cop retuned to his car) . I then said I pulled over as soon as I noticed his unconventional blue lights flashing. He acknowledged his car was unmarked. I explained I would have to exit the buggy in order to get his requested paperwork that resides in a locked compartment behind the seat. As I retrieved the registration and my license he got very nervous, he asked where were we coming and going to. I responded Foxboro car show to home. He badgered me to say the town I live in. He then noticed the car in front of us that had pulled over, getting even more nervous and agitated, and asked us why they pulled over and did we know them. Since they were traveling the same speed we were: I assumed they had pulled over to let the cop car pass, as I had also assuming he was passing as I was not speeding. (judge Judy educated me that you can't presume to read minds.) I told the cop I don't know why they pulled over or who they were, and they were not with us . He angrily yelled to them to leave NOW! He then returned to his car with my legal paper work. Within the 15 minutes he was in his car: a traffic jam was now forming as he had stopped us on a narrow back road near the town line known as a secret short-cut by everyone. Everybody wants to see a pulled over by a cop dune buggy. It had become a public spectacle, not the private incident it had started as. The cop suddenly returned, saying he had got a call on his radio and hade no time to deal with me now. No ticket for speeding, No verbal warning, just a request,: I mean order to leave immediately and store my paperwork away when I got home.(which would take too much time adding to the traffic jam I was causing) I complied. We later realized he was only a reserve officer. The point was we were never speeding, the traffic jam was caused by the cop. He felt we needed to be pulled over and chose a bad location. I have never not gotten a speeding ticket when actually speeding. I'll never know if he called into the station or not. My buggy is registered as a Volkswagen DUNE with a 1967 VW vin number. Several weeks later a new hired rookie cop faked a story that he was shot at in his cruiser causing him to crash into a tree. The police investigation confirmed the rookies police issued firearm was used to shoot the holes in the cruiser, he had made the story to hide that he crashed the car on his own. Not saying it was the same guy: just saying sometimes I've been Perceived an Outlaw.
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5150bossman
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Re: PERCEIVED AS OUTLAW

Post by 5150bossman »

First off, I took no offense as I read your initial posts, so there is nothing to "lighten up." I apologize if I didn't recognize that the posts were satirical in nature. Emotions are never translated well in text. I was agreeing with you in how to deal with an overzealous officer, and just providing further means for others reading these posts to handle such a situation should it occur to them.

What I wanted to curtail before it started was the thread moving into a wholesale berating of officers and deputies for everyone who has a story of a traffic stop where they believe they were wronged for whatever violations they were stopped for, or worse. That's all. In today's climate, things quickly move out of the realm of satire and just get ugly from there.

Have a good day. 8)
lastmanx
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Re: PERCEIVED AS OUTLAW

Post by lastmanx »

5150bossman, good no problems. come on you must have a funny story.
lastmanx
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Re: PERCEIVED AS OUTLAW

Post by lastmanx »

The state of Texas considers all street driven, title owned dune buggys as illegal. They have already perceived you as a buggy owner an OUTLAW. They have already revoked legal title from buggy owners. Their best weapon is your silence. Weather you believe it or not, They PERCEIVE YOU AN OUTLAW, and other states will follow as you keep silent.
Apparently only my state of Massachusetts which has expressed to me by uninformed police officials their intent, since I have been street driving for 30 years, has brought it to my attention by unnecessary police stops. I have denied them by showing them my legal documentation, and will continue to. Yes I think it to be humorous, as they have never proven any criminal offence after the stop. Go enjoy your buggy while you can, for now.
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rzeller
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Re: PERCEIVED AS OUTLAW

Post by rzeller »

I still can't tell if this thread is satirical or serious :| What I do know is that in the 14 years I've owned/driven our buggy I've never been pulled over, harassed, or otherwise bothered by LEOs. I do know that my plates have been run - I've watched them in my rear view mirror, while stopped at traffic lights, look at the buggy and type on their laptops. I do know that I've had LEOs tell me that I have a very cool car when I've pulled into a parking lot of a fast food place and they were standing in the lot - this actually happened in PA while I was visiting my home state of NY and I have NC tags. I do know that LEOs do NOT know every traffic or state specific registration regulation, even in their own state of employ - my son is a LEO and I play 20 questions with him about our own state regs such as the fact I can put any state tag on my buggy as long as it's the year of manufacture of my registration. I've asked my former son-in-law (NC State Trooper) and numerous other NC LEOs if they were aware I (or anyone else with a vehicle older than 35 years) could put a non-registered tag on my vehicle as long as it was legally registered and I carried the "real" tag with me. I do know that I've driven my buggy on Interstates and secondary roads from NY to FL and back without issue. I do know that LEOs deal with respectful and disrespectful (to the point of punching a family member in the face before a single word was spoken) people every day, so the first thing that comes to my mind after being pulled over (in a non-buggy) is NOT to be confrontational. I've never felt like I was perceived as an Outlaw.
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lastmanx
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Re: PERCEIVED AS OUTLAW

Post by lastmanx »

rzeller you are correct on the intent of this thread. simply put. Texas revoked legally obtained titles of dune buggys because they perceived them to no longer be legal. Done! Did It. No Trial, No investigation. So if they can do it why not your state? why not my state?. I know police have only pulled my buggy over as they suspect I have broken the law. (perceiving me an outlaw). They are simply doing their job. My point is that I have personally pointed out to them that street driven dune buggys can in fact be legal. What I am promoting is that more Dune Buggys should be seen driven ; so the sight of one won't seem so unusual. Thus educating the world they can be legal and they do exist. I am suggesting everyone take their buggy off their trailer and drive it, rather than tow it, so people will stop thinking buggys are not road legal and must be trailered around. Suppose the OBX decision makers suddenly decides dune buggys are no longer legal to drive the OBX ; just as Texas has revoked legal title to dune buggys? Shouldn't every Dune Buggy owner be outraged? I ignorantly thought other dune buggy drivers may have had similar, humorous, incidents like mine. The story would show that buggy owners need to do a better job enlightening the world that dune buggys are legal ,fun, and can be positive. I was wrong, sorry. It must just be me in my state alone. Never mind.
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